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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.02.07 14:55:00 -
[1]
Originally by: Van Steiza Grimpak Brah I think to prove a point im just gonna go out and kill a **** load of the things in thrashers n t1 frigates....
Please do. Then come back and donate your five cents as to what needs to change for it to be balanced.
AC Thrasher can be tracking tanked in MF range using a Slicer (ie. faster orbit than it tracks). Even webbed its doable, but requires manual flying and becomes a very close fight. Dramiel is almost twice as fast, has drones, tracking bonus and twice the EHP .. do the math.
But as said, by all means try to kill a non-noob Dramiel in a Thrasher/T1 frig. I'll save you a seat here on the whining benches for when you realise the futility of it.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.02.10 06:30:00 -
[2]
Those kills pretty much proves the point, one needs to go to extreme lengths or 'bring friends' to nail the things. Like the small-auto Hurricane killing a Dramiel .. awesome fit for the purpose but utterly useless for anything else
But any killed Dramiel is OK in my book so keep it up.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.02.11 13:32:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Zilberfrid After some testing, I think that probably taking out the missile high slot and a mid slot, while quite the nerf, make a better fit. This has been tested in missions (L3, with other ships tested taranis, ishkur, comet, jaguar and claw, not with perfect skills) only, so it is ready and set to be shot down.
Removing the missile slot does not actually balance anything since it isnt used by anyone, I have yet to see one at any rate. Removing midslot does not do a whole lot, the buffer will merely move to a lowslot .. change has to be comprehensive so that it is not rendered useless. It needs a complete overhaul so that it is focused onto 1-2 areas of expertise like all the other pirate frigs. If Daredevil is damage, then it should probably be speed at expense of damage/utility.
There are plenty of areas to hit with the bat, a consequence of it being so damn OP (just recently realised it has better scan res than ~90% of the interceptors). Reduced cap, tweaked speed, reduced damage, reduced fittings, reduced drones, reduced tank, reduced sensors etc.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.02.11 14:14:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Zilberfrid I like to use it as a comet for grown ups, so I am not for a bandwith decrease. The midslot does remove a lot of options, and the missile high slot can fit a nos to keep running a bit longer, it helps greatly in missions at least.
Then you mean high-slot and not missile slot. Missile/Gun slot is an attribute attached to a high-slot, if no attribute is set then it is a utility (high)slot. Removing/adding slots is pretty serious business as it affects almost everything a ship might do. I think CCP has a "total slot count" for various ship classes that they are trying to uphold. Better to just tweak the stats to weaken it.
It's a PvP ship like all the other faction frigates though, so balancing based on PvE performance is probably a bad idea
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.02.12 08:04:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Stil Harkonnen <snip>Get off your high horse now please.
First admitting that you have rudimentary understanding of the tracking formula in play and then spewing that? Don't know if its balls or ignorance
Dramiel vs. Thrasher will always end in with a dead Thrasher, the speed difference is simply too great. Since almost all other aspects are about equal it doesn't take a great leap to know this. Against the MSE Thrasher you won't even need to use AB for orbit since the base speed is twice that of a scrambled Thrasher .. more than enough to be under the guns while hitting his larger signature with near full damage - AB just insures the win.
Small ship combat is generally a dps race but due to speeds and sizes involved tracking has more value than you might think, more than EHP, range or dps at any rate.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.02.13 08:37:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Siouxie Banshee calling for a nerf on what might be the most balanced ship in the game?
Good thing I hadn't made my coffee yet or I fear it would be coming out of my nose at this
Your entire "defence" hinges on price. So Titan's should be doing solar system wide DDs, Mom's should automatically destroy everything when they arrive on grid and Marauders should not die to anything short of a 100 man hot drop .. not a valid argument, never has been. ISK buys you an edge, not iWin.
Originally by: Siouxie Banshee Again, really good ship, that can be killed by anyone who is prepared and capable. And a huge isk-sink for people who can afford them.
Yes, we have already seen the small AC Hurricane, Assault Caracal etc. Anything can be killed if you are willing to gimp yourself in all other areas. You have over a 100 kills with just 'some' losses and how does that translate into being a huge ISK sink? You do realise that unless the ship actually dies then it can not be counted as an expense right?
Thank you for playing.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.02.13 13:14:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Originally by: Grimpak considering how the caracal handles itself, and the ship bonuses, the AML caracal is not "gimped".
Well, only viable targets for aml caracals are frigates and dessies, so its true lol.
Naah, Grim is partially correct. AML Caracal does work against all targets even, but it does lose a lot of range and some damage .. AML's are a strange weapon, cruiser sized yet firing frigate ammunition so perhaps not the optimal example by me.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.02.15 18:19:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Tatanya Darkdawn Just out of curiosity, what was the best frigate before the changes to faction ships?
That is kind of the point, there wasn't one. You saw Rail/Blaster/Dual-prop Taranis', Ishkur's, Crusader's, Rifter's, Jags/Wolves , Punisher's, EAS's etc. Practically every conceivable hull was seen on a daily basis.
Quantum Rise blew the small hull playing-field wide open, even the lame ducks: 'destroyers', found a use as the principal counter to the broad range of AB fitted frigates that suddenly appeared.
That is the main reason why I am so infuriated with the god-like Dramiel. It is supplanted 90%+ of all other small ships .. no matter what you want to do, the Dramiel will outperform all other hulls when fitted for it except for the specials such as EAS. Such a ship is an abomination in a game that prides itself on variation, choice and unpredictability.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.02.16 13:45:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Magna Star ... The ship will never dominate Eve the way Vagas and Falcons did.
Kind of obvious since its a frigate with far lower EHP/DPS numbers compared to the Nano-Vagabond/Ishtar and less gang-impact of the old Failcon. It is already completely dominating any <5-10 man gang warfare however, at least when talking HACs and below.
Why bring interceptors and AFs when you can have all of it and more with just the one ship? 2 of these things will easily do the job of 4-5 "regular" T2 hulls .. damage, tackle, eWar, warp-ins .. you name it.
What baffles me is that CCP chose to release them even after we "pwned" their AF AB boost idea forcing them to actually test it .. why the hell didn't they think to test the pirate frigs beforehand .. might have had a workable Worm and a balanced Dramiel from the get-go
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.02.16 14:02:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Grimpak because they wanted to make them powerfull, and CCP is populated by people that still think split weapon systems are good?
So sad that it can only be true .. such a shame firing squads went out of fashion in business management paradigms
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.02.16 18:42:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Magna Star The Dramiel does not do that much more kills then the Stiletto/Taranis/Crow/Rifter. So it is FAR from being dominant in its 'niche'.
Considering that the buy-in price is 100M+, that it is supposedly 'rare', that the attrition rate approaches zero as pilot/gear improves, that it features on more mails than the fleet BS du jour the mighty Apocalypse, that it is even on the damn tackling frig list!
Not sure what you consider "dominating" but that sure as hell equals dominating to me.
Hell if you remove the standard null-sec roam (Zeal, Vaga, Sabre, Rapier) and the best bang-for-buck (BC's) ships you are left with just the Megathron being higher on that list. For a rare expensive hull it sure gets around!
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.02.16 19:24:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Considering that the buy-in price is 100M+
wrong. it's actually around 75-85mil. dunno where you're getting your data. the daredevil however costs arround 105-125mil
Pfft, I know. But since no one except the delirious and/or drunk un-dock in unfitted ships I added the 15-25M which is the standard Dramiel fit these days (faction drives, rest T2) .. hence the 100M+.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.02.17 21:30:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Proxyyyy
Thank you Cearain for linking his stats. What i can tell quickly is that he's a cautious pvp'er and doesnt realy take chances or atleast of the times he does he hasnt realy payed for it. Looking at all his losses to about 09 nov, he never lost to a dramiel ever! Thats unless ive missed something?
It is called relevance. Dramiel was not exactly an issue last year, now was it? Same as saying that "after carefully checking all data up until 1922, I can now confidently say that no human has ever been killed by a nuclear weapon".
4 Rifter's die hands down to a competent combat interceptor especially against the Claw; first two because they are ******s and charge you .. third because he gets too far away from his surviving buddy, 4th will probably have run before its his turn so make that 3 Rifter's Have done it in both tanked Crusaders and Slicers, separating the weak and foolish from a herd isn't too hard. I can only assume it is infinitely easier to do in a Dramiel as it has 3-4 times the speed, twice the tank, faster lock, spare cap, free highslot and drones.
Dramiel's or the presence of them disallows any chance you might have to do this due to the insane speed advantage. During the ten seconds it takes to nuke a Rifter a Dramiel can travel 70-80km .. no way to pull a group that far apart unless they are complete morons.
Both Cruor and Daredevil have a severe handicap in their cap dependency, lack of drones and rational speeds, ie. they are balanced with loads of counters. Same can not be said for the foul one.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.02.18 07:48:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Proxyyyy Im fairly sure my observations were indeed relevent.
I was pointing to the fact that the pirate ship boost didn't come in until December, so your data wouldn't have included them at all .. hence not relevant.
Originally by: Proxyyyy Last night i tried to take on a gang of 35 frigates from Dreddit corporation in theyre home system!
Might be a bit overkill to go for 35 at a time, unless its a proper fleet which means you can coax the tackle away from the heavies. But it is a fun way to PvP, isn't it?, gets the blood pumping. I would much rather have my skill and situational awareness control a battlefield as well as who lives and who dies rather than supercharged ship attributes .. much more satisfying.
Originally by: Proxyyyy Also what ceptor can cap the daredevil or curor? The claw?
Who said anything about 'ceptors capping them out? Just the fact that they can be made dead in the water by a common (PvP) module is a huge downside, even the monster cap on the Slicer doesn't last long in a combat scenario. Removing drones from Dramiel doesn't do anything to alleviate the problems with it, that is true, I think people keep bringing the drones up as they seem out of place on the hull more than anything. CCP needs to focus it like they did DD/Cruor, for an Angel craft that would probably mean speed/agility with sub-par damage/tank .. by all means leave it as a super-interceptor, but don't give it AF tank/gank on top.
Originally by: Naomi Knight Cynoball is nearly the same op, just compare it to the lol phantasm or gila. A 20% cut to autocannons dps would make it balanced.
Cynabal is not as big an issue though, despite its speed and range it is still almost BC size with extenders so practically anything can hit it. Exactly the same for the Vagabond really, they too will mess you up 1-on-1 but are at a severe disadvantage when they can't control range/speed 100%.
Swap the Gila missile bonus to explosion radius or velocity and it will stand a much better chance on todays battlefield. There are much better sniping cruiser hulls around anyway. Throw in an additional 5-10%/Level to fall-off on the Vigilant to give it a proper engagement envelope with T2 ammo and it too will be vastly improved. Phantasm I am not sure about, I doubt CCP even has a clear picture of what it is supposed to do (same goes for Succubus) .. seems very weak on the whole. Ashimmu is pretty good at what it does, perhaps a slightly reduced mass to up MWD speeds or adding 15m3 drones .. not sure really, will take a Pilgrim/Curse over it any day so 'meh'.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.02.18 09:09:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Updyke The Great Dramiel Nerf(TM) will come in the form of the much awaited AF boost.
/BECAUS EOF DRAMIEL
One can only pray
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.04.22 15:56:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Seriously Bored
Originally by: Cebit Swt this graph on SHC. See the dramiel on that graph :-)) Linkage
Jesus.
Hahaha. Had to actually look for it, but then I was looking near the interceptor cluster .. what a fool I was
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.04.22 20:42:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Omara Otawan Not really, claws for example tend to fit 1-2 speedmods, while dramiels tend to fit 0-1 speedmods, so the disparity with TQ fittings is a lot less pronounced.
When it comes to speed/agility then sure. But what about the fact that every slot used to close that speed gap detracts a lot from the Claws tank/dps? Slots have an insane value on small ships due to their scarcity so practically all of them has to sacrifice whenever a module is fitted .. Dramiel has very little of this built-in balancing present in its design.
Originally by: Omara Otawan So the question remains, should inties be made out of lead? Its not like they only look bad compared to dramiel, they also look bad compared to the rest of the field taking their role into account.
The combat interceptors can actually go toe-to-toe with most ships in their weight class. The only reason they often lose to faction frigates is that they lose the dps race, with comparable dps their puny EHP is just no match for the Fac.Frigs. If you set about boosting them to equal or surpass the Dramiel's speed and lock-time/range you end up with Interceptor swarms like in the old days .. so we must tread carefully
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.04.22 21:14:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Omara Otawan With the typical fittings on a speed / gank focused claw setup, there isnt anything sensible that fits in these slots besides speed / agility mods anyways due to pg/cpu constraints. You'd load up additional gyros instead of these if fittings would allow it.
The other side of the built-in balance coin, fittings. I have encountered gank Claws and they scare me to no end
Originally by: Omara Otawan That wasnt the suggestion ..
Tweaking speed and mass would indeed make them better at their jobs without wrecking anything (or rather nothing important ). I fully agree on the Dramiel being the nitro-injected interceptor.
Originally by: Omara Otawan Ceptor swarms are a good thing btw, imo the relation of small/medium/heavy ships used on the field is way off towards the heavies in eve, but thats just an opinion.
Hells yeah. Best fun I have had in Eve were in mixed Interceptor/EAS swarms .. costly when the whole she-bang implodes at the first rack of well timed smarties but tremendous fun. The S/M/H balance was nudged a good deal towards the center with the web/speed changes though, not nearly as bad as it has been .. but when larger numbers are involved the number of zero transversal moments increase a lot so lights become suicide tackle Not much that can be done about that without breaking the opposite scenario even more than that which is being fixed.
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